SPEAKER_01: 0:00

I've noticed that women in the workplace, leadership positions and non-leadership positions, when there is a problem, their cards go down on the table and they let you know, like, hey, we have a problem. I screwed up. What should we do here? Men, on the other hand, they will go to freaking Kalamazoo, Michigan and back trying to find a way to fix the problem before they actually fess up and say, I've made a mistake here. Welcome to the Emotional Intelligence Podcast, a podcast diving into how emotional intelligence can be unleashed to turn great people into great leaders. And now, your hosts, Ismail and Samir. Hey, Ismail, how's it going? Hey, Samir, doing well. How about yourself? Good, good, good. I'm excited to get an opportunity to record with you today. It's been a while since we've sunk up. For sure, yes. All right, cool. Well, Ismael, I got to say, there's something that you said in previous episodes a number of times. And I think it was something along the lines of, if you have made a mistake or if you have something, some bad news to share, I will not get mad at you if you come and tell me first. That's right. Before I hear it from somebody else. That's right. Yes, I was thinking about that. And I just think that that's such an interesting... thought, right? And I wanted to ask you kind of why of all of the lessons that you've imparted on your teams over the years, why that's one of the ones that always kind of finds itself at the top of the Rolodex for you. So

SPEAKER_00: 1:46

I think a couple of reasons. One, I've had managers, I've been in situations where I haven't felt comfortable or safe enough to be able to go and say, hey, I screwed up. We'll say partly on me and partly on my manager or leader. And I know how much stress and anxiety, like making a mistake and having the fear of having to tell someone is and how trivial it actually is in the grand scheme of things.

SPEAKER_01: 2:14

Is it though? Is it though trivial? That's where I wanted to go with it. Next is like, let's say that you're in a situation where somebody is making a mistake that is material or something that's really actually like, you know, I'm not talking about they missed a date, but I'm talking about they did something where, you know, it's causing, uh, A large financial issue or, you know, like there's actual consequences of this mistake. How do you handle that? Like, because you're saying if you come and tell me about it, you're not going to get in

SPEAKER_00: 2:46

trouble. You're not going to get I'm not going to like I'm not going to be yelling at you. You're not going to get in trouble. Like, how could you I'm not going to berate you or anything like that. But we're going to come to a solution. Could there be consequences in the sense of like. Yeah, you really messed up. That doesn't look great for you. You're going to have to recover somehow. Sure, that's always the case. But am I going to make you feel bad about this? No. And look, I mean, when we talk material, when I say grand scheme of things, I'm literally talking about the grand scheme of things. Like in life, at work, a mistake. I mean, people make multi-million dollar mistakes. And is it bad? Yeah. Should they have to suffer for it? No. They should not suffer for it. That's kind of my rationale.

SPEAKER_01: 3:29

Let's say that you're in a situation where the person's not maybe making the same mistake, but there's been a series of mistakes that are happening. And at the root of it, it feels like there is a disconnect where this person just does not have the ability to come and tell you when there is bad things happening. Sure. They're very... Uh, comfortable coming to you with good news and positive updates, but if there's something bad, they just want to sweep that bad boy under the rug. And you see that happening over and over again. How do you handle

SPEAKER_00: 4:02

that situation? Well, to me, that is 100% a performance related issue. That is, I mean, call it what you want. Call it whatever skill you want to put it in. Communication, troubleshooting, mitigating, risk mitigate, whatever you want to call it. That is 100% a performance related thing. And I think we should be clear about mistakes that are made because of negligence or performance related. They just don't know. They keep, you know, they haven't learned their lesson sort of thing. And one that is honest, any leader that is remotely talented, remotely talented can tell the difference. And if it's honest, then that's one category. And those are the ones that people should be more open in talking about. And then there's performance-related ones that they're hiding it from you for whatever reason. They can't tell you. They don't know how to tell you. They're too scared to tell you. Or they just don't think it's a problem. I'm curious, where would you focus? What particular one troubles you the most? That's a good

SPEAKER_01: 5:05

question. I think for me... If somebody is having trouble coming to me and telling me bad news, the first thing I'm going to do is look in the mirror and say, is there something that I am doing to stop or prevent this person from feeling comfortable coming to me? A leader has a responsibility to create a psychologically safe environment where people can feel vulnerable, where they can feel innovative, where they can feel like they can come with new ideas. But part of that psychologically safe environment is to be able to come and share things when they're not going well either, right? Yeah, so I have to kind of get a little introspective, do a quick audit of myself, I will feel very much obligated to have that conversation. discussion, that open discussion and let them know that like, if it's something I'm doing, tell me what it is that's actually causing this issue. And I will try to, you know, fix the issue. I think what troubles me more is when I've completed the self-assessment and I really can't identify a reason why they're doing this. And then it turns into, okay, this is something that's a little outside of my control. What if this individual just has a Like a deficiency or– And that to me is much more difficult to deal with because I feel like I don't know how to stop them from being able to do or how to change them

SPEAKER_00: 7:23

really. Yeah. I mean, look, so I know you well. And I mean, the fact that you looked at yourself first or that you would. look at yourself first. That is huge. That's a skill. That's a lot. That is, I mean, everyone should look at it that way, regardless of how obvious it is. Just like double, you know, check themselves. That's number one. So kudos to you. But on the other hand, I mean, I'm assuming, uh, like if this were me, let me put myself in, in this person's, this, this manager's shoes, this leader's shoes, who's working with someone who has an inability to talk to them, uh, or communicate, uh, I mean, the frank conversation has to happen. So it's like one, hey, did you know that you aren't able to communicate to me before things go terribly wrong and you make my life harder or it actually makes it harder? Your life would be easier. Our lives would be easier. We would be more successful if you came to me earlier. Step one happens again. Repeat the conversation. And then maybe a little bit deeper and the sense of like, is there a particular reason that you couldn't come to me? Was it something that I did? Is it the situation? A third time it happens. Now we're personally– and again, let's make an assumption that it's a material issue, right? We're talking money is being burned. Relationships are being burned. I think– A very firm, strong performance related conversation needs to happen. And I'm not one to give up on people very, very quickly. Right. But there are certain situations where like ability comes into play. You're like, maybe this person isn't in the right place. Maybe their role is not in the right place. They can succeed. Maybe they're good. You might consider them talented, but they may be more trouble than it's worth in the long run.

SPEAKER_01: 9:10

Yeah. And sometimes you put people in high stakes positions where they have to take the brunt of the responsibility and accountability. And with that comes a need to be able to come back to the business and say, Hey, look, there is a problem. I'm raising a red flag here and it is incumbent on me to share this because I have a title that requires me to do this. It's kind of my fiduciary duty to my department. And if I'm incapable of doing that, then, really, that's a big part of my job. So I guess that when some people, like you said, I agree with you that it could be that in a lesser role or something that's more of like an individual contributor role where they're doing something that's not as high stakes, that they might be able to be successful. And I think that this is something that is very underrated when we look at When we look at candidates for promotions, when we look at candidates for leadership positions in the future or something that I definitely do already is I vet this in an interview process because it's tell me about a situation where you screwed up. Tell me what you did. How did you approach the situation? And I look to see like, was one of the first things they say that they went and told their boss.

SPEAKER_00: 10:31

People are scared to do that. They, it is, I mean, I think not to add humor or inject humor or belittle the situation, but you know, there's some childhood trauma there in those situations. And

SPEAKER_01: 10:42

you know, it's even like taking into stuff earlier. Like I've noticed this and this is, I don't have empirical data to back this up. There may be studies on this. I have not looked into it. But this is my podcast, so I can talk about whatever I want. When there is a problem, their cards go down on the table and they let you know, like, hey, we have a problem. I screwed up. What should we do here? Then on the other hand, they will go to freaking Kalamazoo, Michigan and back trying to find a way to fix the problem before they actually fess up and say, I've made a mistake here. And in that process, they end up really dying. making the situation worse in a lot of situations. Cause you know, like one of the things that one of my mentors told me and in a position that I had many, many years ago, he, he, he always said to me, Samir, bad news does not age. Well, bad news does not age. Well, he's like, as soon as you know something bad, Let others around, you know, let me know, let your boss know because bad news does not age well. And I've learned, I learned those lessons early in my career. Now, as soon as I find out about something, I just throw it on my boss's radar. Even if I'm like, Hey, this is going on. This is the 15 things I'm doing to try to fix it right now. But I'm just letting you know that this is happening.

SPEAKER_00: 12:30

You got to admit they appreciate that your manager appreciates. And that's why I want to know when I say like, just tell me, I want to know because... one of them is I can help fix it. If I, you know, obviously if I can, I will. The other is like, I want to let my manager know. And maybe their manager wants their manager, like let their manager know who knows. Right. It makes life so much easier. And yeah, it's like ripping the bandaid off. It stings. Right. It does sting. There's no question about it, but come on in the long run, any, any, um, reasonable person has been in a situation where they've had to hide something and it just, it never ends well. And let's say you are successful in fixing it you probably shaved off like two three years of your life was it really worth it no

SPEAKER_01: 13:14

yeah like i mean i think you know by nature i might be a little bit more of an avoider myself you know like i'm kind of like a no news is good news sometimes you know and it's not one of the qualities about myself that i i really love you know but obviously at work it's a little bit different you know um in the workplace it requires that sometimes you gotta you gotta go cut you know, against your nature, you know, sometimes it's like, yeah, at home, this flies at work. This doesn't, you know, but I do see sometimes instinctually me facing a situation and not, Right away being like, okay, I need to raise a red flag. Like, I think to myself, like, all right, I got a couple of days to figure this out and that's okay. But like, it's funny. I have like, you know, one of the females that reports to me is very adamant that like, Hey, you need to throw this on your boss's radar. Like we should let them know. And I'm like, you think so? Like, okay, yeah, let's do it. You know? But like, it's, it's because, and even though that situation was not even my fault, somebody under, you know, in my organization's fault, I I still find that sometimes it's just like instinctually you're like, that's not your gut reaction, right? Let me go tell on myself. And that's a hard thing to balance.

SPEAKER_00: 14:34

Thanks for tuning into the podcast. We hope you're enjoying the episode so far. If you want to stay updated on all the latest content and behind the scenes action, be sure to follow us on social media. You can find us on Instagram, LinkedIn, Facebook, Twitter, and several other places by using the link in the show notes. And if it's not too much trouble, we'd love for you to leave a review and share this episode with some of your friends. Your support means everything to us and we can't wait to connect with you online. Now let's get back to the show. I do think, I mean, you know how you're saying there's fault, but then there's responsibility, right? Yeah, it's not your fault. But at the end of the day, your team, your organization, your responsibility, everything is on you. And that's the way it should be. Like your job is to take all of the blame and give away all of the credit. That is actually, that's how you succeed at the end of the day. Now, okay, fine. You got to sell yourself in the sense of for promotion. You want to talk about the good stuff, but the way you succeed, you know, in, in, in the bigger picture, not by little, little projects, little, little wins. It's the big picture. And how you do that is you just take the brunt, you take all the crap and you put it under your arm and you walk around with it. And that is your cross to bear. And your team is there like, okay, I got my, my, and this is why they have to come and tell you. So you can do that for them.

SPEAKER_01: 15:56

Let you like, yeah, you're the stress filter. That's why you get paid more than they do. Right. Yeah. In a lot of respects. It's not because always you have more technical skill experience. It's your ability to weather those storms in a more productive manner. But it's so funny that you brought up the cycle, like, you know, the deep. rooted psychological childhood trauma. Because, man, that stuff carries with you, right? I guess the reason I brought this conversation sort of to the forefront is because I really do think that in the workplace, an important skill is the ability to deliver bad news. And I don't think it's talked about enough. And I think that a lot of leaders are struggling to Yeah. And it's a lot of times avoidable and they're doing it to themselves because they have an inability to share that bad news. It's not that they don't think it's the right thing to

SPEAKER_00: 17:16

do. I guarantee if there isn't a book on it already. You should write one or we should write one, whatever. But there has to be a book specifically on this topic, like how to deliver bad news to your manager. We can Google it. We can Google the crap out of it and we're going to find a thousand things. But you are right. I think there is a skill that should be put in the job description, ability to deliver bad news. because it is a skill and they're inevitably going to happen. Yes. And a couple of things. One is you got to know when to do it, right? We, you know, it's not just like every single red flag. You're like, Oh boy, I'm going to go tell my manager. That's, that's a problem in a nut for another reason, right? You have to look at, we're taking the assumption that the manager takes it well, right? And there are situations and, and I don't think we should, we necessarily have to get into this, but there are situations where you're, it doesn't matter what you do or what you say to your manager. They're just that way. And that's a place you probably shouldn't be working anyways, or that person shouldn't be a manager. So we can kind of like take that off the table.

SPEAKER_01: 18:19

Yeah. If you have a super toxic boss who really doesn't make it easy for you to come to them with bad news, then that's a situation where you may potentially need to try to move to a different team or leave the company or find something less toxic and better for you. But if your boss is a decent leader and is going to listen to you if you come to them and you're just not able to do it, you need to figure that out. You need to do that self-assessment. You need to figure out why confrontation, the fear of conflict, why you're sweeping things under the rug. Why are you avoiding things? Um, because I, you know, in the long run, it's just, it's just going to be tear dutch.

SPEAKER_00: 19:02

Let me ask you a question. Um, Well, I'll start with a statement and ask you a question is that I know personally, I've been in several situations where I've made a mistake or a mistake is occurring or could occur. And I'm just so not looking forward on bringing it up. I just don't want to because you know, you know, maybe it was just such a mundane situation. And you really made a mistake or it's such a huge issue. There's nothing that could have stopped it. Like, you know, those are two ends of the spectrum and you really don't want to bring it up. Um, I've gotten over that. So my question to you is, and how soon, what was your process? How did you go through the process of being afraid? Cause I think everyone is at the beginning to being comfortable. What happened? I know it was one person said something to you, your manager, but anything else? Your mentors, right?

SPEAKER_01: 19:55

Yeah, we talked about the bad news does not age well. I think for me, what helps me a lot is to practice those conversations before I have them. So I do this all the time when I have to have a difficult conversation with my boss or I have to go deliver a bad update or bad news that I know is going to really... have an impact on my boss emotionally and potentially even on the work itself, I practice the conversation. So I really set out how I'm going to say it. This is how I'm going to deliver my message. This is kind of the points that I'm going to bring up right after on the heels of that message on how I'm planned to come up with solutions and things like that. And then I envision the absolute worst, worst reactions that my boss can have. And then I envision the best reaction. And then I try to convince myself that it's going to be somewhere in between those two things. So you're, you're willing this middle ground. You're willing it. Yeah. I love it. Because sometimes, honestly, like when you do something and you're, and you're upset with yourself and you've really screwed up, you kind of want to get yelled at. Like, I don't know. That's just me. Like if I made a mistake, like a true mistake, I, and I went to my boss and I was like, listen, like, you know, there's this$250,000 miss. Like this is on my team. You know, I dropped the ball here. I didn't have process in place to catch this. And if my boss was just like, Ah, don't worry about it. Don't worry about it, man. We'll, we'll get it figured out. I'm sure by the end of the year, you know, uh, something will come in, you'll be able to balance it out. We'll figure it out. And which is probably what's going to happen. Right. But if that was a reaction I got, I would have been like, you know, I don't know how I would take that. I've never gotten a reaction like that. I don't know if I would be like, okay, are you like high right now? Or, or would I just be like, uh, you know, like, okay, I guess it's not a big deal. Let's just go have another miss. I don't know how I would react. But sometimes, yeah, man, you just kind of want to get reamed.

SPEAKER_00: 22:02

You just want to get– you have these expectations. You're just like, just come on. Let me take my lashing so I can move on. Exactly. I need closure here. Just

SPEAKER_01: 22:11

yell at me. Just tell me I'm an idiot. You're going to be fine.

SPEAKER_00: 22:16

That's terrible. You're right. You're right. I'm not sure if I have had one of those situations. I think I've had those situations where I thought– it was a major issue and I really built it up in my head. And it turned out that like my manager was like, Oh yeah, I already knew about that. It's dealt with. Don't worry about it. Or yeah, this happens. This is like really common. Like, man, I wish I came to you sooner. I wish I did. But yeah, these are, they're rare where it kind of is. And those are the unexpected ones, but happy, unexpected,

SPEAKER_01: 22:43

you know, but then there's the ability to, to share bad news or, or deliver bad news. That's just like the pure, like, Meaning, yeah, but then there's also a skill related to how to deliver bad news that, you know, I've had to work on a lot over the years and, and, you know, I've really taken the approach of like, you just state the raw kind of don't sugarcoat, but then right after you state it, you better have some really solid reasoning as to why it happened and what you're going to do to make sure it never happens again. And I found that, you know, when I do that, like, it usually is like, you see the face, like, you know, you see your boss's face go red and then it kind of like calms down because they're like, all right, if I just came and stated it and acted unapologetic or, you know, my tone was kind of like, yeah, this happened, you know, what are you going to do about it? Like, That's different, right? And people do that. And it could be, again, just childhood trauma or they just never learned how to have those conversations. But there are people who I've seen in the workplace deliver bad news as if like– It was not an issue. It was not their fault or they had nothing to do with it. This happened when 100% of the fault is on them. I

SPEAKER_00: 24:06

can feel rage bubbling up just inside. It's annoying. It's very frustrating. You can't take ownership, accountability, responsibility I mean, do that at the very least. Do that. Right. And I mean, I think, but just going, taking a really quick step back, like guys out there will just say, you know, you have more of a problem than others admitting you made a mistake. Just admit the mistake. Just admit it. Move on. Right. And for anyone out there, just admit the mistake. It's really, really not a big deal. I mean, I will always say things like we're not, Uh, saving lives, meaning, and I know that's kind of a cliche, but lives are not on

SPEAKER_01: 24:46

the line. Yeah. Not in the, not in the, like the line of work that most of us are doing. Right. Yeah. Yeah, man. A hundred percent. And you know, some of the best lessons that I've learned in, in, in work at work over the years have been, Yeah. you know, as a fellow leader. And I hope that our listeners got something valuable out of this conversation. And, you know, we always look forward to your guys's feedback. Feel free to reach out to us on Instagram, LinkedIn, connect with us and follow us. And till next time. Thank you, everyone. We'll see you next time. We'd love to hear from you.